Before there was nothing but God.
Now there is Satan.
Case closed.
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The Bottom Line...
Nothing Shows Reason The Door Like a Cure For Things.
~anonymous
We are a way for the Cosmos to know itself.
~Carl Sagan
~anonymous
We are a way for the Cosmos to know itself.
~Carl Sagan
6 comments:
I know from our discussions that you are being sarcastic because you don't believe in God. So, you must really not think He created evil because in your mind He doesn't exist. So, if that's true, then the question remains, "where does evil come from?" I am also curious as to how you measure what is evil and what is not? Just curious. Traci
Hi Traci,
You are right, I am being sarcastic. This was my attempt to simplify the obvious answer to the age old question "why does evil exists?" Christians claim that their God is all knowing, all powerful, all merciful and loving. In the beginning he created everything with his word for nothing existed before him. So if there was nothing (not just the absence of material things, but the absense of every abstract emotion and human idea) then it seems pretty obvious who created evil (or at least the consequence of evil). God was even quoted in the bible as saying he created evil! Additionally there is the even more pressing issue of why the Christian god allows evil to happen. Regardless of who created it, if he acts within the personality that Christians claim for him, then he should show compassion and mercy to prevent evil from happening-yet he shows none of this when confronted with the catastrophes of the world. In conclusion, things happen just as they should without the existence of a god. Christians have tried to make their theology fit, but (in my opinion) is like pushing a square peg into a round hole.
"Evil" is a word that describes a human condition which from the human perspective is deemed detrimental to the survival of its species. I want to survive, therefore I reject those who are "evil".
I have heard many complex and purposefully confusing arguements that somehow show God had nothing to do with evil, but boil down the fat and you find out there is only one possible answer.
You stated that God is quoted in the Bible as saying He created evil. Where? I have yet to read that.
There's a verse in the Bible where Jesus tells some people who were making up their own religious "rules", "You err, not knowing the Scriptures nor power of God."
This is exactly what you have done. If you knew the Scriptures you'd know that God neither made Satan nor evil.
God made Lucifer. Lucifer was the most powerful Angel. His name meant "Day Star" or "Shining One." Isaiah 14:12-14 and Ezekiel 28:12-17 tell how sin (evil) was found IN HIM (not God), because like us, God granted Lucifer free will, and he chose to not only disobey God, but he tried to usurp God's rightful place and authority in heaven. Consequently, God changed his name to Satan (adversary) and cast him down to the earth.
Concerning the earth and mankind, again God MADE everything GOOD. If you read the Genesis account God goes out of His way to point that out and make it perfectly clear that when they were created, EVERYTHING was good. But God also gave mankind free will. God allowed SATAN to tempt Adam and Eve. At that point in time, there was only ONE law: don't eat from the tree in the middle of the garden (the tree of the knowledge of good and evil). The only thing they had to gain by eating was the knowledge of evil, because (remember) they already had good, so it was a really dumb decision to eat from it.
But alas, they made their (really bad) choice and brought sin (evil) into God's perfect creation. God gave them a chance to repent, but they each tried to pass the buck. Adam blamed God and Eve (sounds like men today) and Eve blamed Satan--ditto ("The Devil made me do it.")The consequence of their decision is all the evils we see in the world today.
You say that God shows no compassion and mercy when confronted with the catastrophes of the world. Again, "You do err, not knowing the Scriptures."
In Genesis 3:15 God shows just how compassionate, loving, and merciful He is. He gives the first of many prophecies concerning Jesus (God the Son), and how He is going to save us from our sin (evil).
He says, "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise (or crush) your head, and you shall bruise His heel."
This verse teaches a couple of things:
at some point in the future, there was going to be a woman who would have "seed". In other words, she wouldn't need a man to be able to give birth. This offspring would be male. He would critically harm Satan, and Satan would temporarily "bruise" Him.
The woman was the virgin, Mary. God the Holy Spirit placed God the Son into her womb and she gave birth to Jesus, the God-man. He was temporarily "bruised" on the cross, but when he arose from the dead He gave people the chance to be saved from this evil world and the power and control of Satan--thereby crushing his head.
People tend to think that they're living their lives right now, and if bad things happen to them, then God is bad to let that happen.
The Bible tells us that our lives here are like a vapor that appears for a little while and then is gone. God lets bad things happen for various reasons, but one of the main reasons is to let us exercise our free will. Our problems will either make us cry out to Him and seek Him--or make us mad at Him and curse Him.
The choice we make will determine where we spend eternity. God allows us to suffer here for a short time (and BTW, there are countless verses where God tells us He longs to comfort us)so that we can make the choice to let Him save us so that we can spend eternity with Him.
I hope I have explained adequately that there is indeed only one answer as to where evil comes from, and that is NOT from God. It comes from our own rebellious and sinful hearts as we live out our temporary lives here in this fallen, cursed world. Our decision-making time grows shorter every day. My prayer for you (I'll address your false beliefs about prayer in a future post)is that you would make the right one (and there is only ONE possible right one.
Debi,
Like most non-believers, I have actually read the bible. You accuse me of not being familiar with the scriptures yet here you are asking for the missing passage you admit to have never read. So here it is: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV). I can only wait in anticipation for the apologetics you are now preparing for me.
Here is my problem with the whole “evil/Satan” issue. The answer is so obvious, Christian apologetics have to invent fantastical circumventing techniques to hash out the obvious problem this idea creates for them. I don’t mind if God created evil. Worse case scenario is that Christians and every other god believing religionists are worshipping a sadistic being that enjoys abusing, destroying and torturing people. Hell, at least we can stop pretending he is something he is not.
Free will is a popular arguement used in trying to “pass the buck” to humans (and Satan) as the authors of evil. But as I pointed out in the calculation, if there was no good and evil before, then god is to blame. Unless you are going to tell me that good and evil exist outside of god. This would make for an interesting debate, but would ultimately render your god less than all-powerful and certainly as something less than the creator of all things.
Until we meet again,
Chad
Chad,
Sorry to have accused you of not reading the Bible if you have. I’m wondering if you’ve read it in its entirety, and why you read it. I hope it’s because there’s a part of you that’s searching for truth.
I also hope that’s why you started this blog. If you search for truth with pure motives, you’ll find it.
I’ll be very honest with you. I’m going to respond to the issues you brought up in this post. After that, if your purpose in this blog is just to argue against Christianity, I’ll probably drop out of the argument for two reasons: first, Matthew 10:14, Mark 6:11, and Luke 9:5 all state that if you’re talking to people about God and they don’t want to listen to you, you should just shake the dust off your shoes and move on. Sort of like that verse about not casting your pearls before swine. Second, I’ve been at this for almost 30 years, and I’ve learned the wisdom of those verses. Some people argue because they want someone to convince them, and some argue because they like to argue. If you’ve got doubts about God and you want to just “bounce them off someone” and meditate on the response for awhile, I’m glad to be your “wall.” If, on the other hand, what you really want is to just try to outwit people who disagree with you—you’ll have to find someone who’s into that kind of thing. Like I said, I’ve been doing this too long; I’ve experienced enough of that futility. Let me know your objective.
So, to the business at hand.
I did no such thing as “admit” I’ve never read Isaiah 45:7. I read through the entire Bible every other year, and on the off-years I do topical and book studies, so I’ve read that passage many times. It’s crystal-clear from your comments that you have no respect for Christian apologetics. That’s unfortunate, because it will prevent you from understanding many of the things you read in the Bible.
You see, the Bible is very complex, as are languages. I don’t know if you’ve ever studied a foreign language, but I suspect you probably have. Do you remember the problems encountered when you try to translate one language into another? (This is just one small piece of the study of apologetics.) A word in one language may not translate the specific meaning implied in the corresponding word of another language. (ex. Greek has at least 4 words for our one word “love”.) Consequently, not all translations of the Bible translate word for word. Some translate thought for thought. That’s the issue we run into in Isaiah 45:7. A few Bible versions do say “I make peace, and create evil”, others, however use thought for thought and replace the word “evil” with either “calamity” or “disaster.” If you combine this with another area of apologetics (here we go... inventing “fantastical circumventing techniques”) and you look at the context of this verse, the gist of what God is saying becomes clear—God has a planned purpose for everything and that purpose will be fulfilled, sometimes in peaceful times, sometimes during “calamity” or “disaster.” (Remember—the whole chapter is about how God is going to use Cyrus to bring his chosen people, Israel, back into their land...this time peacefully, through Cyrus, at other times (like when he brought Israel out of Egypt –not so peacefully).
Actually, Isaiah 45 is a fascinating chapter. God is directly addressing Cyrus, 150 years before he was born! When Cyrus, king of Persia (modern day Iran) read this (obviously, more than 150 years later) he, an unbelieving pagan, became a believer and fulfilled the role God was calling him to (helping the dispersed Jews back to the land of Israel). Verse 7 is part of God’s “schooling” of Cyrus. He was letting him know that everything is in God’s control (including “peace” and that pesky word that really should be translated “calamity” –again, looking at the context).
This is why people spend their lives studying the Bible—different versions, learning Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic, studying the customs of the time the book was written and interpretation methods.
I’m sure you’ve read some of Shakespeare’s plays. Almost doesn’t sound like English, does it? Language is dynamic, not static. Same for culture. Once you get a feel for the culture of Shakespeare’s time, and if you study the dynamics of Old English long enough, it’s easy to understand what’s going on in the play. Apologists are not “inventing fantastical circumventing techniques” to explain anything. They’re trying to take a Jewish book (actually, 66 books written over several thousand years as dictated by God the Holy Spirit to over 40 different people) written in Jewish terms and culture and make it understandable to people living at different times all over the world. They have done an admirable job and should be respected.
As far as God creating evil is concerned:
Once again, I’ll refer you to Genesis 1. God made it quite clear that everything He created was good at the time it was made. You said “...if there was no good and evil before, then god (cap) is to blame.” There was good before. There was also the knowledge of evil, which God didn’t want for us (tree of the knowledge of good and evil) God knows all things. Sin (disobeying God) is what brought evil into the world. How can God be to blame for that if He warned Adam and Eve not to make that choice? No one’s trying to “pass the buck” by stating that people chose to sin of their own free will. I would counter that you’re not accepting the fact that people are sinful and abuse God’s gracious freedom by sinning against Him.
Now, I wouldn’t tell you that good exists outside of God. God is good. In fact, we can define good by what He is. I would, however tell you that evil exists outside God.
For your part, I don’t see how we could have a “debate” on this. You know what I believe. If you really believe that there is no God, then you would have to believe that evil exists outside of God, wouldn’t you? Sounds more like you’re trying to “pass the buck” for the existence of evil to God, rather than blaming the true culprits: sinning humans. You can’t have it both ways—you can’t say there is no God, but He’s the one to blame for evil. If there is no God, Chad, then there is no Satan either, and you and I are the cause of evil. Case closed.
Hi Debi,
Good to hear from you again. Yes, I have read the bible from cover to cover. I am about half way through it again, but time is a precious commodity I don’t have these days. I am getting there…slowly but surely. In addition to reading it all the way through, I read sections of it on occasion when I am researching a topic or idea, so I stay relatively “fresh” on my scriptures.
The reason I read it is to better understand the Christian phenomena. As I have posted in the past, I am fascinated with how perfectly rational people can believe in an irrational idea. I do not say this to discount your train of thought, but rather to point out that the stories in the Bible, if taken literally, break every observable law known to man. For instance, when a trained marine biologist labors through her job, Monday through Friday, only to turn around on Sunday to accept “as fact” that a man actually survived in the mouth of a great fish for 3 days, I find this mind-boggling. Mind-boggling because somehow the marine biologist-fully aware that it is impossible for this event to have occurred- is able to shut off all her rational thought (everything she knows about the world) so she can perceive the Jonah story as a “real” event. This “compartmentalization of rationality” is a fascinating ritual that all Christians have taught themselves to do. Why does rational thought prevail from 8-5, but not at any other time?
As for seeking truth, I am open to all possibilities as long as they coincide with reality. That reality can include the belief in God as long as there is substantial evidence that points to His existence. Without it, no one should ever take the Bible stories literally. Our current state of evidence should make us all skeptical.
What is the objective of this blog? I guess one is to raise awareness. Speaking out against the belief in God has been taboo in this country for as long as I have lived. Those who had the courage to do it in the past were regularly ostracized and hated beyond all measure. But without debate or conversation, how does the human race ever hope to grow and mature as a species? I am bringing the topic of religion to the table because it allows people to freely question the things they take for granted. It allows ideas to be reviewed, criticized, accepted and/or rejected solely based on its own merit, not on what someone else tells you is true. The Christian religion (I mention it because it’s the one I am most familiar with), is full of contradictions and confusion (we can argue on this point forever as you pointed out). Issues of faith that should have been addressed and put to rest centuries ago have gone relatively unchallenged or ignored because people were (and still are) afraid to step out of line. In today’s world, however, this fear is fading away. My blog is a result of this cultural change. Additionally, and I should say primarily, this blog was meant to help my friends and family understand how I came to the conclusion that god (likely) does not exist. I am not ashamed of this. Nor should anyone else be ashamed of this conclusion.
In secret, I honestly believe, deep down, every Christian is a doubter- even if that doubt is only the size of an atom. Your logic has to be whispering to you that a man didn’t really have super-human strength because of his long hair, or that zombies really didn’t rise out of their graves and walk the city streets after Jesus died, and that Moses didn’t really part the Red Sea by asking it to. I imagine you choose NOT to give into this logic because of how your belief makes you feel. You don’t want to give up your hope for eternal life in exchange for what is likely true (that there is no after life). You have “compartmentalized your rational thought” to keep your ‘Christian logic’ separate from your ‘real world logic’. You have to do this, you see, because the two are not compatible with each other. Reality is not something that should be ignored or averted. We should hit it head on and not simply believe something is real because we WANT it to be real. If that were the case then Elvis is alive and kicking, Big Foot exists and I am a millionaire! Just because we want things, doesn’t make it any more true.
I must address the issue of “evil” because it is clear that believers do not want their God to take the blame for it. In my world, evil is not an entity, it is a behavior. A behavior that is indigenous to the human condition. Evil is a natural reaction to the world in which the evil doer is a part of (scarcity of resources plays a big part-i.e. lack of food, land, education, etc). Humans can also behave “good”. This behavior can be defined as that which satisfies the most desires to the largest group of people. Good and Evil is not a cosmic battle between an all GOOD being and an all BAD being. These are the things of myths; myths that personify our human condition. Christianity is no exception to this. Their story, your story, is the continuation of a long line of literature that tries to tackle the question of ‘why’. Why are we here? Why do good things happen to bad people? Why do bad things happen to good people? Why did it all start? You see, if you claim that your God created everything, then you either have to claim that evil exists outside of God-that is, evil was around before Him- OR that God created “evil” as a consequence to humans not believing in Him. According to your comment, you prescribe to the idea that evil exists outside of God. So the obvious question is, who created evil? Obviously it had to be someone or something separate from God. Or did evil just always exist? If evil always existed, we can just as easily say that the universe always existed, can’t we? This train of thought ultimately ends by discovering there is no need for an all powerful god in the first place. He ceases to have a reason to exist. And thus a non-believer is born.
You said “Sounds more like you’re trying to “pass the buck” for the existence of evil to God, rather than blaming the true culprits: sinning humans.” I am certainly not passing the buck to God. How could I? I don’t believe He exists. I certainly couldn’t agree with you more, however, in that humans ARE the true culprits. In fact, all non-believers have been saying this for centuries! There is no Satan weaving sins for us. We are the weavers.
To get to your point that “you can’t have it both ways—you can’t say there is no God, but He’s the one to blame for evil” you are right. I don’t want it both ways and I never claimed to want it both ways. There is likely no god, therefore evil exists as a human condition. However, I am simply proposing to you, Debi, that IF you believe in the Christian God you MUST believe he created evil or that evil exists outside of Him. Either way you choose, we end up with a far different lesson than the one we both have heard from the pulpit.
FINAL NOTE:
I am not in the business to outwit or outsmart anyone. To reiterate a previous point, I am simply highlighting the ideological problems religions have at their core. If you choose to not care or read about these “issues” then you can ignore my blog altogether-you wouldn’t be the first, and you have no obligation to respond. Having said this, if you would like to continue exchanging ideas I would love it. Remember, being open minded is a two way street, so I would be more than happy to be YOUR “wall” as well. I have enjoyed our discussions and (I believe) it helps us grow and helps us realize that neither one of us is crazy. We are normal human beings who want to know the truth of things. I hope this finds you in good spirits and in good health, and I hope you continue to question everything without shame or bias. Until next time, take care.
Sincerely,
Chad
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