I was driving home in my car the other day listening to a popular Christian radio show (I know, hard to believe). The show's host, to his credit, takes challenging calls from its listeners and answers questions that often are considered taboo. Things like, “Will God punish me for believing in evolution?” or “How come there are two different stories of the creation in Genesis?” The radio host usually answers the questions in a convincing manner-many times citing chapter and verse to back up his point. I am amused and entertained by this show and have to say I am a regular listener.
Yesterday a caller (who is a Christian) brought up an interesting topic; prayer. He asked the host why praying in public was such a big deal for Christians since the bible says Jesus and Elijah both taught that prayer should be done in private-behind closed doors. Regrettably I failed to hear the host's response as I began thinking about the issue myself and how this topic has become a recent rallying cry for today’s Christians. It seems you can turn on FOX or CNN any day of the week and find a Christian complaining about the lack of prayer in public schools. According to the devout faithful, this is the real reason why America is suffering. I too believe that a person’s religion is a personal and private matter and should be practiced in private. So if everyone agrees, why do Christians want to make prayer a public matter? Will praying in schools, as opposed to praying at home for instance, really make a difference when it comes to crime rates, poverty, hunger and illness? Do schools possess special (prayer) transmission powers that our homes do not? Perhaps it’s neither of these. Instead, maybe it’s simply a way to try and gain access to impressionable minds. The heads of church will never admit it, but isn’t it obvious to everyone? Isn't it?
Prayer is a fascinating religious dogma. Science has repeatedly proven that prayer does not work yet Christians continue to practice it with fervor. Why? For comfort? Because the preacher tells them to? Not only does science discount prayer’s usefulness, but the whole idea of prayer makes little sense in the context of who Christians claim their god to be. God is supposed to be an all powerful and all knowing being who possesses a master plan for the universe and everything in it-even us. Each individual has a God-anointed purpose. Now ponder this: when we, the imperfect sinful humans, pray to the perfect God to ask him for favors, we do it in hopes that he will hear us and intervene to fulfill our wishes. In fact, the bible preaches that if we pray in Jesus’ name, we will receive whatever we ask for. Does this happen? Of course not. Does it matter to Christian's? Apparently not. But why?
God knows what was, what is and what is to be. His master plan is perfect and without fault (so we are repeatedly told). We would expect nothing less from a perfect god. Now lets put on our Ponder Hats: Let’s say you (the Christian) pray to God to heal your very sick friend Nikki. In fact you ask your whole church to pray for Nikki. Despite your extreme efforts to let God know you want your friend healed, if healing Nikki is not in God’s plan, all prayers for her will go unanswered. The opposite is true as well: If it IS in God’s plan and IS His will, your friend will be healed.
So a rational person has to ask him/herself: Is prayer really necessary to begin with?
God's plan is a perfect plan. There is no changing it. If it needs to be changed then its not a perfect plan, right? SO, God will do what he is going to do in accordance to the plan-despite what you ask of him. This is only human reasoning here, but if we are unable to comprehend the master plan, our calls for Godly intervention (prayer) is a pestilence at best. God doesn’t and shouldn't care what we pray for. He is going to stick to the perfect eternal plan regardless.
You might say that God has the ability to change the future if he wants to. I suppose an all powerful being can do whatever he wants, but if he does that, did he really know the future in the first place? [Again put your ponder hat on] God would have foreseen himself changing the perfect eternal plan (he knows the future) and thus would have planned for the change. So he still has an eternal perfect plan, it just contained the prediction that he was going to change the future to accommodate your request to heal Nikki (even though he really didn't plan on it initially). As you can see, this can get very messy and confusing. So we must call upon the suggestion of the 14th Century logician William of Ockham who said the simplest answer is likely the correct answer.
Doesn’t it make more sense that prayer is just a means to create and maintain a relationship with an imaginary being? That God may in fact really not exist? It is true that if we talk to a wall long enough, we will begin forming an attachment to it (Just ask Tom Hanks how bad he felt when his volleyball 'Wilson' fell into the ocean). Just like a child and his favorite stuffed animal or blanket or imaginary friend, we are able to convince ourselves that someone is on the other end of the unplugged phone despite the fact we know its not possible.
Prayer is an absolute necessity for religions. Without it, people could not become attached to the invisible. With it, it becomes harder for us to realize we are just talking to ourselves.
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
4 comments:
Woohoo religious conversations are FUN!!!! Next one must be politics.
I have no idea if you want or care if I read your blog but it was pointed out to me so I took a peek.
I appreciate different out looks and until probably about 8 to 10 years ago I would've simply dismissed atheist ideas as radical craziness. The same way I'd dismiss some whack job TV evangelist. I now wonder as I age if there may be something to some of the arguments from the scientific community, atheist folks or even some of the more radical, obscure or "weird" religions that are all over the planet. It is wise to hear what others think.
Great point on Prayer in school or public places. I agree this can be done in Church or home as easily as at work or school. That said I believe most of the folks arguing for public prayer in schools are the crazy, brain washed types that dance around and "speak in tongues" at church. Does anyone really care that their 2nd grader isn't saying grace before he eats lunch in the gym? The one thing that does bother me is the lack of consistency with the schools enforcement of the whole religious deal. Why is it when I go to my kids holiday program they always sing Jewish Hanukah songs but no Christian Christmas songs?
I, unlike you came from a very religious family and upbringing. I would say my questions of faith come more from what I've seen and continue to see around me. Hypocrites live in the Church. This I am sure. Of all the heartless, mean, unthinking, selfish and greedy behavior I've seen my 34 years most of it was done by people I knew from church. I will not say there is no God but I will say everyone has different needs. For some folks that need is to believe in a God. Some folks have such a yearning to belong and be accepted by something, anything that they will completely, blindly give themselves to their faith. To these people God does hear their prayers. God does answer their prayers. God does take care of them. They have proved this to themselves. Any topic, point or argument from any non-believer is complete crap to them. They would say "Most likely a ploy by the Devil to try to weaken or test their faith".
When it comes down to it I think most folks are so afraid of dieing they can easily embrace the idea of eternal life in Heaven. This is a very appealing concept. Who wouldn't like the idea of living it up for an eternity in a "perfect" body with all your long dead relatives, friends and everyone else you knew in your life that didn't break the 10 commandments.
As I age this belief seems more and more ridiculous. How could this be true? What if religion was an institution created by ancient governments to control their citizens? What if religion was created to suck funds from lost, lonely souls? What if the universe has only x amount of matter and your "soul" is simply reincarnated? What if you have no soul and when your heart stops that's it nothing else? Pretty bleak questions and out looks. It's much easier to go with the eternity in heaven idea right?
I do however think it is wise for everyone, including people that don't believe in a higher being to keep their minds open to different ideas and possibilities. Could humans have evolved from apes? Sure, hell I don't know. Could there be an omniscient God that created all? Sure, hell I don't know.
Here's what I do know. I am a good guy. I rarely break the law, never cause harm to others, pay my taxes, support my community and do my best raising my kids. That's good enough for me.
I used to struggle with the same idea...if God knows what's going to happen, why pray? So instead of praying for a miracle, I'd pray that "Nikki" would have a positive attitude through her sickness or that she'd have a pain-free day tomorrow, that her loved ones wouldn't ache too long in the event of her death, things like that.
Then I heard our old pastor explain prayer in a new way to me. He likened it to being home on a weekend and hearing the ice cream man coming around the corner. As a father, he knew that buying his kids ice cream at 4:30pm would ruin their dinner. But it wouldn't kill them and they'd be grateful for the special treat.
What he did was instead of yelling, "Hey kids - the ice cream man is coming!" he decided in his head that if they heard the truck and asked for ice cream, he'd let them get it. But if they didn't ask, he would just let the ice cream man drive away.
This got me to thinking: if a minute is the same as an hour to God, whether someone dies of cancer this year or is healed and dies of natural causes in 10 years, what's the difference? To Him, the difference is our faith. The people who are pained by the death would eventually get over it (so to speak) or grow stronger as a result. But if enough people asked (prayed) for healing, God knows whether or not their faith in Him would be strengthened and may grant their request to keep their loved one a little longer.
So basically, I've concluded that God wants us to pray to increase our faith and to deepen our relationship with Him.
Since my faith is stronger than most people I know (once I believe in something...I'm hooked. I believed in Santa WAY TOO LONG!!!) I spent years wondering if there was a "point" to prayer. I wouldn't believe in God any more or less as a result of His answer to the prayer. But then I started SEEING the answers. And sure enough, even my rock-solid faith continued to increase.
And as much as it frustrates you, I believe that these religious differences in your marriage are specifically purposed to strengthen Tanya's faith. If she believes with every fiber of her being that God will work to bring you full circle into a relationship with Jesus Christ, He can absolutely make that happen.
She just has to believe.
I'm so glad you're searching because, even though it appears you're becoming a stronger advocate against God and Christ, the more you dig, the more likely it is that you'll come to know the Truth. If you were apathetic, God would have a much harder time getting to your heart.
Can't wait to see what other great posts you have up your sleeve!
While some people (Christian and not) would like to see a return of corporate prayer in the public school system, that’s really not where the contention on this issue lies for most born-again Christians.
Most, like me, wouldn’t want unsaved teachers leading their kids in prayer. I assume parents of other religious beliefs would not want their kids being led in prayer by people of other faiths, either. The issue here is whether or not kids are allowed to pray on their own when they want to. Many children of different faiths have been told that it is not allowed for them to pray in school at all—which is against the Constitution. Kids have been told they can’t bring a Bible to school, pray, or have club meetings before or after school if the meeting is of a Christian nature. Teachers have told kids that they can’t do book reports on religiously oriented books, or talk to their friends about what they did at church over the weekend or wear a necklace with a cross on it. None of this is legally off-limits, although many in the school system try to say it is. That’s why the battle of prayer in the schools rages on.
BTW—your statement, “...maybe it’s a way to have access to impressionable minds. This of course will never be admitted to, but isn’t it obvious to everyone?” is exactly the thing Creationists suspect when they try to understand why the theory of evolution is exclusively taught as an explanation for “Origins” in the public school system. There is another widely believed explanation (God made everything). Guess there is only certain information the public schools want those “impressionable minds” to learn about.
You state very matter-of-factly that “Science has repeatedly proven that prayer does not work....” I’ve read those articles as well as many that state just the opposite. The results of any type of “scientific” research performed on supernatural occurrences are going to generally be skewed in favor of the preferences of the researcher. A reporter named Rob Stein (Washington Post, 3/24/06 p. A01) reporting on several “scientific” experiments on prayer came to the same conclusion. Since science has no instruments to measure Spiritual growth, faith, well being, psychological healing, etc., science has no platform to “discount prayer’s usefulness.”
As for the rest of your discourse on prayer:
First, you say that when we pray we’re asking God for favors. While that is sometimes the case, you betray the fact that you are not a pray-er in that it’s much more than that. Sometimes we confess our sins and repent when we pray. Sometimes we give thanks for blessings when we pray. Sometimes we just want to tell God how much we love Him. Most Christians I know don’t approach prayer as nothing more than a spiritual wishing well. We understand that when we pray we’re not changing God, but He’s changing us.
You said that “...God is going to do what he is going to do. Our inability to see the future and not comprehend God’s plan makes our calls for Godly intervention a pestilence at best. God doesn’t and shouldn’t care what we pray for. He is going to stick to the perfect eternal plan regardless of what we ask for. That is his will because he is chained to the future he sees. You might say that he can change the future if he wants to, but if he does that, did he really know the future in the first place?”
Wow. I hardly know where to begin.
The first thing that struck me about this tirade is the number of declarative statements about God you make. (I count at least 5.) For someone who doesn’t believe in God, you sure claim to know a lot about His nature.
“...Does God really know the future in the first place?I mean he would have foresen his changing of the ending.” Thought: Because God knows what we are going to pray for, perhaps He shapes His plans to include answers to our prayers (affirmative or negative).
Regarding God being “chained” to something, or not caring about our prayers, let me refer you to 2Kings 20 to learn if that's true.
James 5:16 states “The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.” In light of that and many other verses imploring God’s people to pray, the statement, “God doesn’t and shouldn’t care what we pray for” from a Believer’s perspective is false and offensive at best and blasphemous at worst, as is the statement, “...prayer is just a means to create and maintain a relationship with an imaginary being.”
You’ve made many statements about how religion divides people. Have you ever considered that unbelief does a pretty good job of that as well?
If you’re interested in considering other viewpoints, there are two books besides the Bible, I would recommend to you:
Show Me God by Fred Heeren and The Case For Christ by Lee Strobel.
Both are written by men who used to be atheists. Lee Strobel’s situation was much like yours. He is a journalist whose wife became a Believer. In order to prove her wrong He contacted leading Christian theologians and conducted research . He wrote this book as a result of that research.
The other book comes from the opposite direction. Heeren’s book conducts interviews with leading unbelieving scientists to come to his conclusions about God. I think you’d find them both interesting.
Hi Debi,
Thank you for your reply. I do enjoy reading your thoughts and I hope I can clear up some of the items you bring up. So here we go...
Kids can pray in silence whenever they want to. This is not prohibited by the school system. I can pray in public school if I want to as long as I am not disrupting the class. If you want to be HEARD praying, then yes, this can be a sticky issue for the public school system. But really, why does anyone else need to hear a child’s prayer? That is the million dollar question.
I have to say that I am shocked to hear that kids are being told not to wear crosses at school. This clearly violates freedom of speech rights and should be condemned immediately. Having said this, I find it difficult in my own experience anyway, to comprehend this even takes place. I am not saying it hasn’t, but this has to be a very isolated incident (at least I hope it is). Anyway, your experience is different from mine as I never saw this type of prohibition.
In regards to why evolution is taught in schools as opposed to creationism, there is a simple answer to this. I won’t give you the long version so here is the short one: Evolution is a science. Creationism is not. You cannot begin to experiment, dissect or review pertinent information about God and his process of creation. Science is the study of nature. God, by the Christian definition, is beyond nature-he is supernatural. So what you have is not a science subject but a theological one. This belongs in the church; which if the old adage holds true can be found on the next street corner. If you care to debate this in a separate email we can.
You stated that you have read articles that prove prayer actually works? Because I am eternally curious, can you forward or post the articles you are referring to? Until then, lets perform a little experiment. According to the Bible, if we pray in Jesus’ name we will receive whatever we ask for. Its true, here are just some of the verses:
John 14:13 – And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
John 14:14 – If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
John 16:23 – And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
John 16:24 – Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
Now I want to make this as fair as possible. I know there are some unwritten rules in praying, so we won’t ask for something to be done for us specifically, but for another person in need. The next time you pray to God, ask in Jesus’ name to heal just one amputee so he can be restored to his normal self. Surely this would prove the unequivocal power of God and this whole debate about prayer can be finally put to rest….Of course you know no amputee will ever be restored to his/her normal self because God either ignores amputees or he doesn’t exist. Because I refuse to believe that an all merciful and powerful being would do such a thing, I choose to subscribe to the latter. Of course you are free to try and explain this phenomenon by resorting to God’s great plan, but I think I already covered this in my post and we know where you stand on that.
You stated that…”The results of any type of “scientific” research performed on supernatural occurrences are going to generally be skewed in favor of the preferences of the researcher. A reporter named Rob Stein (Washington Post, 3/24/06 p. A01) reporting on several “scientific” experiments on prayer came to the same conclusion. Since science has no instruments to measure Spiritual growth, faith, well being, psychological healing, etc., science has no platform to “discount prayer’s usefulness.”
Look, if prayer is only supposed to make you feel better about yourself, then fine. If it increases your faith (which I have already argues that it does), spiritual growth (whatever that means), well-being and psychological healing then more power to you. But these are hardly the things that are at work when you get a prayer group together to pray for someone in the next neighborhood who is dealing with a serious illness. The logic in how praying for the health of a sick person is supposed to work is clouded. Perhaps it helps because the person knows you are praying for them. This helps them feel like they are being thought of and consequently makes them feel better. This is nice, but couldn’t you just ‘tell’ the person you are thinking about them and skip the prayer service altogether and accomplish the same thing? Think about it.
Additionally, I find it hard to believe that science can’t prove whether or not prayers are being answered more than what random chance already provides. The experiments are simple. Double blind set up; pray for one group of sick people to get well and don’t pray for the other group who suffers from the same illness. If the group that is being prayed for heals faster on a regular basis than the ones who aren't, then the answer to the question has been answered.
This experiment has taken place already many times and the same results keep showing up. Prayer has no effect.
Prayer IS a wishing well of sorts. You claim it is not used that way all the time, and I understand this. But it is used that way sometimes. It is in these moments that non-believers leave the party. If prayer is just another form of meditation, a way to clear our thoughts, give thanks to god for steering us clear of danger for the day, for allowing that raise to happen at work, then I am on board with that. Meditation is a great way to clear the mental pipes.
You stated “For someone who doesn’t believe in God, you sure claim to know a lot about His nature.”
I am only regurgitating the rhetoric I hear from my visits to church, and what I read in the Bible, and what has been preached and proselytized to me over the years. I know the stories of God just as much as you do (an educated guess on my part). I can be pretty confident that I know just as much (or little) about his nature than anyone else on this earth. In honesty, if anyone claims to know the nature of God outside of these societal tools (churches, bible, preachers) they are trying to sell you something.
You commented on my statement “...Does God really know the future in the first place? I mean he would have foreseen his changing of the ending.” (YOUR Thought): Because God knows what we are going to pray for, perhaps He shapes His plans to include answers to our prayers (affirmative or negative).
(My response) So prayer is not something we do voluntarily? It’s something required of us in order to stick to God’s plan? What happens if we don’t pray when we are supposed to? Does the plan all go to hell (no pun intended)? I suppose the alternative then is to say, “No, God has prepared different pathways for us. You may pray or you may not pray. Each choice takes us to an alternate ending that God had planned for us from the beginning.” Well, by logic then, God doesn’t truly know the future; he only knows what will happen if you choose to pray or if you don’t choose to pray. But he is waiting on you…My head hurts from trying to navigate the preposterousness of it all.
You mentioned, “You’ve made many statements about how religion divides people. Have you ever considered that unbelief does a pretty good job of that as well?”
Considered it? Yes. Believe it? No. Statistically speaking, non-believers are no more ‘sinful’ then Christians are. We ALL behave exactly as human beings should. So, does religion really provide society with any benefit? Not really. No more than what secular thought provides. So it boils down to a matter of manners. Non-believers try and live their life the best way they can as morally and ethically as possible. Believers also do these things, but-here’s the catch- they want everyone to do what they do. And they stop at nothing to convince you you are sick and sinful and will burn in eternal Hell if you don’t join their way of thinking.
Lastly you commented, "If you’re interested in considering other viewpoints, there are two books besides the Bible, I would recommend to you:
Show Me God by Fred Heeren and The Case For Christ by Lee Strobel.
Both are written by men who used to be atheists. Lee Strobel’s situation was much like yours. He is a journalist whose wife became a Believer. In order to prove her wrong He contacted leading Christian theologians and conducted research . He wrote this book as a result of that research.
The other book comes from the opposite direction. Heeren’s book conducts interviews with leading unbelieving scientists to come to his conclusions about God. I think you’d find them both interesting.
Thank you for the recommendations. I have already read Lee Stroebel’s book and saw him lecture, in person, about his journey. I will look up Show Me God.
Thank you again for your comments. I do find them educational and I hope to continue hearing from you in the future. Take care Debi!
Chad
Post a Comment